Some people take vacation days to shake off the wreckage from their workplace: I spent mine signing 100 copies of my book, UNFINISHED BUSINESS: THE LIFE & TIMES OF DANNY GATTON.
Simon & Schuster sales representative Charlie D. Young suggested the trip, since Olsson's supported Danny long before his hair-raising guitar abilities spread beyond his Maryland-Virginia-D.C. stomping grounds.
No problem: my webmaster (Don Hargraves) and I were up to the trip. We left at 5:30 p.m. Thursday (11/6) and spent the night in Mars, PA (which has the same anonymous burger joints and strip malls you see everywhere else).
Our 3:30 p.m. arrival helped avoid the notorious Beltway gridlock, find the store and sign 40 of the 100 (!) copies Olsson's intended for its holiday gift guide. I spend 20 minutes scribbling variations on my signature and creative messages (like "Yours Truly, From Gatton Central").
We kill another hour at Orpheus Records, where Charlie arrives; he's going to introduce me. On our way to the signing, we stop at the Hard Times Cafe - which we're sure Danny would have loved, for the burgers and chili.
About 15 people show up for the signing, including Dave Elliott, Danny's drummer of 18 years. I read 'em four or five passages: the fruitless warnings to Danny against modifying his guitars so drastically get the biggest laugh: "He took that guitar home, hacked it out, made a swimming pool in it, and put three white-coil Patent Applied For humbucking pickups in it." (For further reference, see Chapter 4: "The '53 Tele & The Pickup Man.")
But everyone's armed themselves with intelligent questions: Did he enjoy international success? Why did the Elektra deal sour? Who were Danny's biggest influences? What he was doing from his child prodigy years to the Redneck Jazz Explosion era?
My favorite moment comes during the signing, when a guy says: "I used to deliver the Washington Post during the '70s, and Danny's house was on my route: lots of barking, [antique] cars everywhere: it was one scary looking house!" We share a good laugh about that one.
My signing duties over, I spend another hour taping a radio interview with Michael Buckley (WRNR-FM) that should provide fodder for a thoughtful review of Danny's legacy.
Don and I round off our night at Charlie's house taping live Gatton CDs, including Take It Away - a bluesy, smokin' '89 gig with Jack Casady and Jorma Kaukonen (billed as "Jack & The Degenerates") - and P.G. County Funk. Both are 150-minute double CDs, too...ah, hell, sleep can wait.
We return to Michigan by 11 p.m. Saturday. Our 54 hours in D.C. are over, but those hot-wired leads on "Harlem Nocturne" and "Sleepwalk" from P.G. County Funk still resonate in my head. The night's been good.
...POSTSCRIPT: 9/30/08
Little did Don and I know that, barely five years later, one of D.C.'s premiere independent outposts would close its doors, sucked down into a perfect storm of booming e-commerce, declining sales and an economic slowdown that was just beginning to intertwine its tentacles around every nook and cranny of our nation. Here's how the company's original press release:
"Olsson Enterprises, Inc., trading as Olsson’s Books & Records closes stores and petitions court for Chapter 7 conversion.
"Olsson Enterprises, Inc., trading as Olsson’s Books & Records, Record & Tape Ltd., and Olsson’s Books announced today that it has closed all of its locations and petitioned the U.S. Bankruptcy Court District of Maryland for conversion of its current Chapter 11 protection to Chapter 7.
"The reasons given for the petitioning were stagnant sales, low cash reserves, and an inability to renegotiate current leases, along with a continuing weak retail economy and plummeting music sales.
"Olsson’s was granted Chapter 11 protection on July 11 this year in order to work on an aggressive reorganization plan involving selected store closings and large cuts in overhead costs. At the same time the Lansburgh/ Penn Quarter location on 7th Street, N.W. was shuttered to make way for a new London-based restaurant.
"Olsson’s was established in 1972 and grew to as many as nine retail stores in the Washington, D.C. metro area with sales over $16 million a year and as many as 200 employees. Currently there are five retail stores: Reagan National Airport, Old Town Alexandria, Arlington Courthouse, Crystal City, and one in Northwest Washington at Dupont Circle. Olsson’s earned its reputation as a locally-owned community-oriented retailer with a knowledgeable staff selling a wide selection of books, music, video and gifts.
"Stephen Wallace-Haines, Olsson’s general manager stated: 'In the end, all the roads towards reorganization led to this dead end: we did not have the money required to pay for product in advance, to collect reserves to buy for Christmas, and satisfy the demands of rent and operational costs. We were losing money just by staying open.'
"John Olsson, principal owner, Washington native and graduate of Catholic University had this to say, 'Although it is certainly a sad day for us, I can rejoice in all the great memories of my life in retail in Washington. I began at Discount Record Shop on Connecticut Avenue in the fall of 1958, and worked there until 1972 when I left to open my own record store at 1900 L Street. Along the way books were added, more locations, a couple thousand employees, and many thousands of customers. It was exhilarating. Through it all, our best and brightest served Washington’s best and brightest with love and distinction. I’m very proud of what we accomplished. My love and gratitude to all my employees, and special thanks to all those thousands of loyal customers.'"
After the announcement, Olsson's allowed people to weigh in on its blog -- and people wasted little time taking that opportunity. For those who care to take a peek, I'm response #344. To read everybody's thoughts, go here: http://www.olssons.com/blog/archives/1.
These are no small points in a nation where more than 1,000 bookstores closed between 2000 and 2007, leaving about 10,600 standing, according to the latest federal stats that I was able to unearth. Obviously, the growing popularity of e-books and the vicarious thrill of being able to buy an old favorite online has something to do with that figure.
I, for one, am not saying that trend's necessarily bad; e-books have given a lot of authors a new lease on life, one that I fully intend to explore, as well. And I've never been one to rhapsodize about "the good old days," and how wonderful they were, to the exclusion of everything going down today.
The reality is, those who don't want to give up and "go along with the program" will always have to fight for their fair share of real estate -- whether that struggle happens to occur on the air, onstage or at live events like the one that I just chronicled above. But if you feel that an idea's worth fighting for, you won't mind doing the legwork...as the late Rob Tyner once told me: "The only thing that goes with the flow is a dead fish."
John Olsson is gone, too. He died at 78 in October 2010, after a long battle with cancer. However, he left an imprint that won't ever be forgotten, one befitting the man who championed maverick talents like Eva Cassidy, and Danny Gatton. I saw that philosophy in action back in November 2003, and -- though we never met, nor spoke -- all I can say is, "John, thanks for making me feel at home."
A WORD FROM THE MANAGEMENT: Now posted, from the previous incarnation of this website: "54 Hours In D.C." (below). To view older entries, just hit the "Archive" button, followed by the relevant headline link on each entry.
54 HOURS IN WASHINGTON, D.C.: My Appearance At Olsson's Books & Records, Arlington, VA (11/07/03)
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TOM PRINCIPATO DISCUSSES HIS NEW ALBUM (PT III, 1/9/11)
If you've made it this far into the proceedings, you're certainly well aware that Tom Principato isn't merely an archiver for hire, but also an interesting artist in his own right. For further evidence, listen to his latest album, A PART OF ME (Powerhouse Records), which serves up Southern-fried soul ("Sweet Angel"), driving New Orleans rhythms ("Down In Louisiana") and bumptious roots-rock ("Don't Wanna Do It"), without missing the proverbial beat.
My favorites are the title track -- which is the kind of old school soul-rock ballad that you hardly hear anymore -- and "Stranger's Eyes Pt. 2," another worthy addition to Tom's lengthy instrumental musical roll call. And that's before we discuss the special guests, who made their contributions via the magic of technology, as Tom explains: "We would either email or send a CD reference of the basic track. They'd overdub it, email or send it back, and we'd fly it in, with digital synchronization.
"So you'd send a reference down to Sonny Landreth, in Louisiana, and when he had a chance, he went into his favorite local studio...laid it down, sent it back...instead of having him fly up here, or try to catch him when he's in this part of the country on tour." Yes, indeed, a lot has changed since Tom first cranked up his stacks 40-odd years ago, but not the commitment to making passionate music. (For more information, visit: www.tomprincipato.com/.)
CHAIRMAN RALPH (CR): It's interesting to see some of the guest names you've got here. You've got Chuck Leavell, you've got Brian Auger: that's not a name that has popped up in my brain for quite awhile.
TOM PRINCIPATO (TP): Well, I've known Brian through an all-star band that Catfish Hodge has been putting together every year, the January All-Stars. The personnel has changed, but the group started out to be Catfish Hodge, myself, Steve Wolf on bass, Pete Ragusa on drums, and Brian Auger on organ. I've always been aware of Brian, and actually, I saw him with the Trinity in 1970, at the Cellar Door.
After we did a couple of gigs with Brian, I'm going, “This guy is good as anybody in the world!” And it's true, man. He's incredible. He takes a really nice solo on his album, but I've heard him do stuff as good as Jimmy Smith. He just tears it up! So, when I got this idea to do an album that involved some of these kind of guys, I immediately thought of him – and he was very generous.
CR: And there he was! Of course, the association with Chuck was a little closer to home – since, like you, he is a Southerner.
TP: Well, not only that, I met him when I was in Geoff Muldaur's band, in 1980. We did a show with Sea Level in New England, and that was when I first met Chuck. But he's been involved in two of my other albums. He produced my Tip Of The Iceberg album, and he plays on my Really Blue album.
CR: What do you get from him, that you don't get from [playing with] somebody else?
TP: Well, he's just got a special way of accompanying me on the organ, and he just plays some great stuff. His style is individual. He's a great guy, a Southern gentleman, and I just like working with him. He never disappoints me with the stuff that he sends, when I ask him [to contribute something].
CR: Indeed. So what was the basic recording strategy with this particular album? It's got a very live sound to it, I noticed...
TP: Right. Yeah, I was really trying to go for an organic sound, and we used ProTools – but I think, in all of the non-objectionable ways, you know. We used it to sort of supplement the music, not screw with it.
CR: Not overwhelm it!
TP: Yeah, so that was pretty cool – but my approach always is to set up in the studio, and perform the way we do at the gigs. Usually, it's with the core group – guitar, bass and drums. I go for live solos as much as I can. I really don't like overdubbing them. I did do more overdubbing this time than I usually do on an album, but there were still a number of live things. I mean, “Down In Louisiana” is completely live. My solo on “Down The Road,” with Brian Auger, and Willie Weeks, and Jim Brock, that's all live. And “Back Again And Gone,” with Steve Wolf, and Joe Wells – that was live.
CR: Yeah, and I have to say that on listening to “A Part Of Me,” I thought, “Wow, this sounds like the old school kind of song that they really don't do anymore!” That was an interesting highlight for me.
TP (laughs): Yeah! It was a kick to have Wayne Jackson and the Memphis Horns on that. He did all the horns for all the Otis Redding records, and a lot of the Al Green stuff, too.
CR: So what do you think works here, from a songwriting point of view? What have you been playing from it live?
TP: Well, oddly enough, we haven't been doing the instrumentals. I'm trying to demonstrate my growth as a singer, and a songwriter, so we're doing “Down In Louisiana,” and we do “A Stranger's Eyes.” We do “Part Of Me” – the audiences just love “Part Of Me.” “Sweet Angel” has been popular with the audiences, too. They're diggin' that one.
CR: So you've been really pushing the song aspect of your personality this time around, then. Of course, that's another curse great guitar players deal with. It's easy to think of them purely as players, and forget about all the other stuff.
TP: Right. Well, you know, I'm willing to admit that – although I've been attempting singing for awhile – I've usually been regarded as my strongest attribute being my guitar playing. But I've really, really been working on the singing, and I think I've had some improvement, and I'm pleased about that. People seem to be enjoying it more – although, even before this improvement phase – a typical thing that people would say to me is, they wouldn't say they thought I was a great singer. They would just say, “I like your singing.” So, I mean, to me, that's as good as anything.
CR: Well, if it has character to it, that's half the battle, isn't it? A lot of people gave Mike Bloomfield shit for that, but to me, that's one of the more endearing qualities of his later stuff.
TP: Yeah, actually, I enjoy his vocals, too. And, to tell you the truth, I enjoy Roy Buchanan's vocals, as well.
CR: Yeah. I put that CD on, along with yours, late last night – 'cause I thought, “That's the best time to listen to something like this.” And with Roy, I could almost feel like I was right there in the room with him.
TP: Yeah. Well, some numb nuts gave me a review recently – I don't even remember where it was now, but I felt compelled to respond to him. He basically said, “Well, Principato had all this star power on the album, I don't understand why he didn't hire a singer, too.”
CR: To which you said...
TP: To which I said, “Well, I felt like I wanted to demonstrate my growth as a a singer, and I'm very pleased with my vocals on this album, and all I can do is do my best.”
CR: Yeah. And some people will like it, and some won't – and that's the way it goes. So, was singing something that you had to struggle with, in the beginning? Did you feel self-conscious [in] taking that on? I mean, how did we approach that?
TP: Well, I'll tell you. It's really not that easy to sing and play rhythm guitar at the same time, or to sing and play guitar at the same time. And it's really something you've got to develop. That doesn't have anything to do with how well you're singing – just doing the two in one is a whole accomplishment in itself. You know, it's been a long development mental process, and I never felt like I could improvise with my voice, like I can with my guitar, but nowadays, I feel like I can do it better than ever.
CR: Well, that's good to hear, so hopefully, then – [on] the next album or two, we'll see that explored a little bit further.
TP: I've been pleased with my vocals at our last live performances. We did some live audio/video recording this past Friday night, and I was pleased with the vocals, so...we'll see. I might be getting somewhere.
CR: But, of course, you may have a bit of pulling power – in the sense that, you're one of the last of the old guys from the D.C. area that's out there pretty regularly...so, that may be a draw for people, in and of itself. They may know your name, but not necessarily what you've been doing lately, know what I mean?
TP: Oh, yeah, definitely! Actually, I think that's a pretty big issue.
CR: In what sense?
TP: Well, I think that I have grown, and changed – and I don't think that a lot of people have realized that. I think it's harder than ever to get people to pay attention these days.
CR: Because there's just so much more stuff out there these days?
TP: Yeah. And, you know, it's funny – on this subject, one of the guys in the band was remarking to me the other day, because we always chuckle about my being put in the “blues guitarist” category. I mean, how much blues is there on “A Part Of Me?” It's bluesy, at times...
CR: But it's not blues-driven, as such.
TP: No. I'm this eclectic roots guy – but one of the guys in the band made a remark: “But you know, every one of these reviews that you get, Tom, always starts out with: 'Blues guitarist Tom Principato.' It doesn't say, 'Guitarist Tom Principato,' or, 'guitar legend,' or whatever. It always says, 'Blues guitarist Tom Principato.'” That's an interesting thing – a lot of people have this antiquated view, or memory, of something that I've done, and don't realize that it may not be like what I am now at all anymore.
CR: Right, and it may not be accurate. And it's interesting, too, because – looking back – you were probably one of the few names of that early era of D.C. [music] to break out, and get to the wider world. Whereas, as you know, a lot of guys like Danny just sort of stayed in that circuit. So, in that respect, you've been probably luckier – but it sounds like there's still some catching up to do, isn't there?
TP: There's been an interesting paradox with me, because I definitely have a lot of name recognition in a lot of different places. I've got over 5,000 friends on Myspace – these are people that have come to me – and I'm reaching my 5,000 limit on Facebook. Those are people that have made requests to me. And I have 500 unanswered friend requests on Facebook. So, obviously, there are thousands of people out there who are aware of me, and my music. Frequently, if I go out, do a show and perform, I don't get a crowd...what's going on? Why is that?
CR: I don't know – I think, perhaps, with the Internet era being what it was, people have so many more choices, and so many more distractions.
TP: Yeah, that's part of it.
CR: Actually, I'll ask you one more question, and then we can hang up. What would you tell people starting out now in that uncertain era – where concert attendances are so horrible, and you've got the issue of downloading, and file-sharing – you've got that whole debate. It seems like the ceiling for sales has never been smaller, in terms of CDs. What do you tell people who might feel nervous about trying to establish themselves in that climate right now?
TP: Well, you just have to be patient and persistent, you know? I don't think anybody wants to give up (laughs), so it just takes more perseverance than ever. That's the main thing.
CR: That's true. Well, of course, you were doing the independent label thing, long before a lot of other folks were.
TP: I was indie before indie was cool (laughs)! And I'm kind of happy about that now, because my little record label has really grown into something nice. I've got a couple of Roy Buchanan albums, a couple of Danny Gatton, a couple of Nighthawks, a dozen of my own albums.
CR: It definitely has its own identity and presence in the marketplace...
TP: Yeah, and I've got a good distribution deal with a great company, Redeye – and I get monthly checks, so yeah, I'm pretty happy. But you know what? I worked my ass off on it.
CR: All right, so life is good – that being said, now it is time to hang up, and let you go.
TP: Well, thanks, Ralph. I appreciate the support. It's always nice talking with you.
My favorites are the title track -- which is the kind of old school soul-rock ballad that you hardly hear anymore -- and "Stranger's Eyes Pt. 2," another worthy addition to Tom's lengthy instrumental musical roll call. And that's before we discuss the special guests, who made their contributions via the magic of technology, as Tom explains: "We would either email or send a CD reference of the basic track. They'd overdub it, email or send it back, and we'd fly it in, with digital synchronization.
"So you'd send a reference down to Sonny Landreth, in Louisiana, and when he had a chance, he went into his favorite local studio...laid it down, sent it back...instead of having him fly up here, or try to catch him when he's in this part of the country on tour." Yes, indeed, a lot has changed since Tom first cranked up his stacks 40-odd years ago, but not the commitment to making passionate music. (For more information, visit: www.tomprincipato.com/.)
CHAIRMAN RALPH (CR): It's interesting to see some of the guest names you've got here. You've got Chuck Leavell, you've got Brian Auger: that's not a name that has popped up in my brain for quite awhile.
TOM PRINCIPATO (TP): Well, I've known Brian through an all-star band that Catfish Hodge has been putting together every year, the January All-Stars. The personnel has changed, but the group started out to be Catfish Hodge, myself, Steve Wolf on bass, Pete Ragusa on drums, and Brian Auger on organ. I've always been aware of Brian, and actually, I saw him with the Trinity in 1970, at the Cellar Door.
After we did a couple of gigs with Brian, I'm going, “This guy is good as anybody in the world!” And it's true, man. He's incredible. He takes a really nice solo on his album, but I've heard him do stuff as good as Jimmy Smith. He just tears it up! So, when I got this idea to do an album that involved some of these kind of guys, I immediately thought of him – and he was very generous.
CR: And there he was! Of course, the association with Chuck was a little closer to home – since, like you, he is a Southerner.
TP: Well, not only that, I met him when I was in Geoff Muldaur's band, in 1980. We did a show with Sea Level in New England, and that was when I first met Chuck. But he's been involved in two of my other albums. He produced my Tip Of The Iceberg album, and he plays on my Really Blue album.
CR: What do you get from him, that you don't get from [playing with] somebody else?
TP: Well, he's just got a special way of accompanying me on the organ, and he just plays some great stuff. His style is individual. He's a great guy, a Southern gentleman, and I just like working with him. He never disappoints me with the stuff that he sends, when I ask him [to contribute something].
CR: Indeed. So what was the basic recording strategy with this particular album? It's got a very live sound to it, I noticed...
TP: Right. Yeah, I was really trying to go for an organic sound, and we used ProTools – but I think, in all of the non-objectionable ways, you know. We used it to sort of supplement the music, not screw with it.
CR: Not overwhelm it!
TP: Yeah, so that was pretty cool – but my approach always is to set up in the studio, and perform the way we do at the gigs. Usually, it's with the core group – guitar, bass and drums. I go for live solos as much as I can. I really don't like overdubbing them. I did do more overdubbing this time than I usually do on an album, but there were still a number of live things. I mean, “Down In Louisiana” is completely live. My solo on “Down The Road,” with Brian Auger, and Willie Weeks, and Jim Brock, that's all live. And “Back Again And Gone,” with Steve Wolf, and Joe Wells – that was live.
CR: Yeah, and I have to say that on listening to “A Part Of Me,” I thought, “Wow, this sounds like the old school kind of song that they really don't do anymore!” That was an interesting highlight for me.
TP (laughs): Yeah! It was a kick to have Wayne Jackson and the Memphis Horns on that. He did all the horns for all the Otis Redding records, and a lot of the Al Green stuff, too.
CR: So what do you think works here, from a songwriting point of view? What have you been playing from it live?
TP: Well, oddly enough, we haven't been doing the instrumentals. I'm trying to demonstrate my growth as a singer, and a songwriter, so we're doing “Down In Louisiana,” and we do “A Stranger's Eyes.” We do “Part Of Me” – the audiences just love “Part Of Me.” “Sweet Angel” has been popular with the audiences, too. They're diggin' that one.
CR: So you've been really pushing the song aspect of your personality this time around, then. Of course, that's another curse great guitar players deal with. It's easy to think of them purely as players, and forget about all the other stuff.
TP: Right. Well, you know, I'm willing to admit that – although I've been attempting singing for awhile – I've usually been regarded as my strongest attribute being my guitar playing. But I've really, really been working on the singing, and I think I've had some improvement, and I'm pleased about that. People seem to be enjoying it more – although, even before this improvement phase – a typical thing that people would say to me is, they wouldn't say they thought I was a great singer. They would just say, “I like your singing.” So, I mean, to me, that's as good as anything.
CR: Well, if it has character to it, that's half the battle, isn't it? A lot of people gave Mike Bloomfield shit for that, but to me, that's one of the more endearing qualities of his later stuff.
TP: Yeah, actually, I enjoy his vocals, too. And, to tell you the truth, I enjoy Roy Buchanan's vocals, as well.
CR: Yeah. I put that CD on, along with yours, late last night – 'cause I thought, “That's the best time to listen to something like this.” And with Roy, I could almost feel like I was right there in the room with him.
TP: Yeah. Well, some numb nuts gave me a review recently – I don't even remember where it was now, but I felt compelled to respond to him. He basically said, “Well, Principato had all this star power on the album, I don't understand why he didn't hire a singer, too.”
CR: To which you said...
TP: To which I said, “Well, I felt like I wanted to demonstrate my growth as a a singer, and I'm very pleased with my vocals on this album, and all I can do is do my best.”
CR: Yeah. And some people will like it, and some won't – and that's the way it goes. So, was singing something that you had to struggle with, in the beginning? Did you feel self-conscious [in] taking that on? I mean, how did we approach that?
TP: Well, I'll tell you. It's really not that easy to sing and play rhythm guitar at the same time, or to sing and play guitar at the same time. And it's really something you've got to develop. That doesn't have anything to do with how well you're singing – just doing the two in one is a whole accomplishment in itself. You know, it's been a long development mental process, and I never felt like I could improvise with my voice, like I can with my guitar, but nowadays, I feel like I can do it better than ever.
CR: Well, that's good to hear, so hopefully, then – [on] the next album or two, we'll see that explored a little bit further.
TP: I've been pleased with my vocals at our last live performances. We did some live audio/video recording this past Friday night, and I was pleased with the vocals, so...we'll see. I might be getting somewhere.
CR: But, of course, you may have a bit of pulling power – in the sense that, you're one of the last of the old guys from the D.C. area that's out there pretty regularly...so, that may be a draw for people, in and of itself. They may know your name, but not necessarily what you've been doing lately, know what I mean?
TP: Oh, yeah, definitely! Actually, I think that's a pretty big issue.
CR: In what sense?
TP: Well, I think that I have grown, and changed – and I don't think that a lot of people have realized that. I think it's harder than ever to get people to pay attention these days.
CR: Because there's just so much more stuff out there these days?
TP: Yeah. And, you know, it's funny – on this subject, one of the guys in the band was remarking to me the other day, because we always chuckle about my being put in the “blues guitarist” category. I mean, how much blues is there on “A Part Of Me?” It's bluesy, at times...
CR: But it's not blues-driven, as such.
TP: No. I'm this eclectic roots guy – but one of the guys in the band made a remark: “But you know, every one of these reviews that you get, Tom, always starts out with: 'Blues guitarist Tom Principato.' It doesn't say, 'Guitarist Tom Principato,' or, 'guitar legend,' or whatever. It always says, 'Blues guitarist Tom Principato.'” That's an interesting thing – a lot of people have this antiquated view, or memory, of something that I've done, and don't realize that it may not be like what I am now at all anymore.
CR: Right, and it may not be accurate. And it's interesting, too, because – looking back – you were probably one of the few names of that early era of D.C. [music] to break out, and get to the wider world. Whereas, as you know, a lot of guys like Danny just sort of stayed in that circuit. So, in that respect, you've been probably luckier – but it sounds like there's still some catching up to do, isn't there?
TP: There's been an interesting paradox with me, because I definitely have a lot of name recognition in a lot of different places. I've got over 5,000 friends on Myspace – these are people that have come to me – and I'm reaching my 5,000 limit on Facebook. Those are people that have made requests to me. And I have 500 unanswered friend requests on Facebook. So, obviously, there are thousands of people out there who are aware of me, and my music. Frequently, if I go out, do a show and perform, I don't get a crowd...what's going on? Why is that?
CR: I don't know – I think, perhaps, with the Internet era being what it was, people have so many more choices, and so many more distractions.
TP: Yeah, that's part of it.
CR: Actually, I'll ask you one more question, and then we can hang up. What would you tell people starting out now in that uncertain era – where concert attendances are so horrible, and you've got the issue of downloading, and file-sharing – you've got that whole debate. It seems like the ceiling for sales has never been smaller, in terms of CDs. What do you tell people who might feel nervous about trying to establish themselves in that climate right now?
TP: Well, you just have to be patient and persistent, you know? I don't think anybody wants to give up (laughs), so it just takes more perseverance than ever. That's the main thing.
CR: That's true. Well, of course, you were doing the independent label thing, long before a lot of other folks were.
TP: I was indie before indie was cool (laughs)! And I'm kind of happy about that now, because my little record label has really grown into something nice. I've got a couple of Roy Buchanan albums, a couple of Danny Gatton, a couple of Nighthawks, a dozen of my own albums.
CR: It definitely has its own identity and presence in the marketplace...
TP: Yeah, and I've got a good distribution deal with a great company, Redeye – and I get monthly checks, so yeah, I'm pretty happy. But you know what? I worked my ass off on it.
CR: All right, so life is good – that being said, now it is time to hang up, and let you go.
TP: Well, thanks, Ralph. I appreciate the support. It's always nice talking with you.
TOM PRINCIPATO SPEAKS, PT. II (1/9/11)
DUELING LEGACIES: DANNY GATTON VS. ROY BUCHANAN
CHAIRMAN RALPH (CR): What did Roy give Danny, and vice versa, from your perspective, since you've seen them both often enough to comment?
TP: My favorite quote on this is, “I think that Roy wrote the book, and Danny added his own chapter.” I mean, to me – the style that Roy invented, I call it, “Telecaster on Mars,” or “James Burton on acid.” James Burton was never that wild. He was always that good, but he was never that phrase-y, and introverted. To me, Roy really, really invented that “Telecaster on Mars” style, and I really do feel like in the beginning, that's what Danny based his style on.
But then, Roy continued to just be sort of a blues guy – and Danny had that incredible jazz phase, with REDNECK JAZZ, and just became a lot more versatile, and a lot more accomplished than Roy. I mean, Roy had chops, but Danny was the amazing technician. I don't hear any of Danny Gatton in Roy Buchanan, myself. I hear tons of Roy in Danny.
CR: Of course, Roy did stick more with the blues and R&B kind of stuff, too, didn't he?
TP: Yeah. Danny had his banjo background, which had a lot to do with his right hand technique, the rolling fingers stuff – Danny was just all over the place, man. If the two played together, Danny would just play circles around Roy, but each had his own thing. To me, Roy was much more soulful, and more deeply emotional than Danny, in a general way. I mean, Danny had his “Harlem Nocturne,” but Roy had a whole bunch of stuff like that, where it was pretty deep, emotionally.
CR: In many ways, considering what happened to them, career-wise – they both suffered from that same syndrome of “guitar hero that couldn't quite find their niche.”
TP: Yeah, but you know what? It was cool, because once Danny got his [major label] opportunity [with Elektra Records], it spurred him on to make one of the best records of his career. 88 ELMIRA ST has got so much great stuff on it. To me, that and UNFINISHED BUSINESS are the two pinnacles of the Danny Gatton that we know. And the other Danny Gatton is the Lenny Breau, [and] REDNECK JAZZ guy. That album is a wonderful statement, too, but UNFINISHED BUSINESS and 88 ELMIRA, to me, are the two definitive Danny statements.
CR: Yeah, that's true. That album has a lot of great stuff on it...
TP: And I'm so pleased that I was not only able to re-release that album, but remaster it. I'm so pleased about the way we improved the sound on the UNFINISHED BUSINESS reissue. It [the original LP release] was really, really flat-sounding and low output – you had to crank the stereo up, and it just didn't pop.
And when it went from LP to CD the first time, I disagreed with the song choice. Norma [Gatton] added a couple of additional tracks, so I decided to leave one of those off [“Georgia On My Mind”]. And that bonus cut I culled from those Danny home demos, I think it's a really great cut, too. Actually, THE HUMBLER STAKES HIS CLAIM has not really sold that well – hasn't sold nearly as good as Unfinished Business.
CR: It would represent a prime period of his live career, I think, that people would be interested in.
TP: The only thing I can guess is that maybe some people are turned off by the lower sonic quality, but, to me – I think it's killer.
CR: One thing record companies always argue against, when they talk about releasing famous bootleg tapes is: “Well, they already have it, so what's the point of doing it?”
TP: Oh, no, honestly – this stuff has not been circulating in bootleg circles at all. That was one of the main impetuses for me, if that's the word (laughs), to go ahead with it: “Yeah! I knew the collectors didn't have this shit.” Maybe word just hasn't gotten out enough yet, I don't know.
CR: Well, maybe – like a lot of things associated with Danny, it's gonna take awhile to seep through to the popular culture, perhaps.
TP: Yes, and no – because UNFINISHED BUSINESS is selling well. I'm gonna go to the distributor website and check some numbers... OK, let's see: LIVE IN '77 has sold better than I thought: 3,900. That's pretty good. The first Roy [CD: AMERICAN AXE] sold over 10,000 now. The AMAZING GRACE one has sold 2,648 [copies]. That's in two years.
CR: In two years – and how about UNFINISHED BUSINESS?
TP: It is 4,450 [copies], and that's a reissue.
CR: That's not bad – maybe you should go into the reissue business, I guess.
TP: Well, they're great to do. I mean, the way I've been doing 'em, the overhead is generally low, and it's fun. I enjoy doing it. Let's ses: OH, NO! MORE BLAZING TELECASTERS has sold decently, not as well as I thought it would. It's sold about 2,200. Of course, the first BLAZING TELECASTERS, since it started out on LP, it's probably well over 15,000 by now.
CR: Yeah, I know. That's kind of, one of the more obscure points of Danny's career, for the non-initiate. I imagine that was part of its appeal all along, wasn't it?
TP: Yeah, I guess so. And I think, from the guitar crowd, it would raise an eyebrow to hear, “Oh, Tom Principato and Danny Gatton [worked] together,” even though I never considered myself in the same league – nor do I think a lot of other people did, either. But I think I was known as a really good guitarist....and I actually got Danny to rehearse (laughs)!
CR: Which was something he was well-known for never doing...
TP: Yes, and I'll tell you – I have at least one of the rehearsals taped, and he's definitely bitching on it (more laughter on this point).
CR: Well, there you go – you could always release a snippet of that, I guess. Are we actually in danger of seeing Danny's and Roy's [musical] footprint disappearing?
TP: Well, that's the way to perpetuate legacies. I mean, Jimi Hendrix has been really lucky that way.
RH: Well, we'll see – maybe if you get that other Roy stuff out, that'll kick-start something. Of course, there's Danny's stuff on video, too, right? Although the quality is maybe not that great... in the case of the Redneck Jazz [Explosion] stuff [from the 1978 Cellar Door run in Washington, D.C.], it's very grainy, and it looks like it was shot underwater.
TP: Actually, I'll tell you, I have been in touch with the guy that filmed that [gig] – That's actually very good quality filming, and it's in color. The grainy black and white [version] you're thinking about is the reference [film] from Bob Dawson, the engineer. He stuck a black and white camera in the balcony of the Cellar Door, so he could see what was going on during the remote recording. But there was another guy,that filmed Danny, that whole night. I've been in touch with him – a couple of the clips are color, and they're on Youtube. They're all wearing those...
RH: Those horrible matching T-shirts, with their beer bellies sticking out – but people would want to see that.
TP: Exactly. I've been on him, I've been on him, I've been on him, and he keeps saying: “Oh, it's taking me so long to convert these over to digital.” For some reason, he's hemming and hawing, and he's not coming through – I would love to release that stuff, but I can't get him to give it up.
CR: Once again, that goes back to the politics of what it takes to get something like that done. It's not an easy business, is it?
TP: No, it isn't. I mean, if something drops into my lap, I probably might try to jump on it. But I'm definitely not gonna do all this archive searching that I used to do, and believe me, I've done a lot of it.
CR: And it's very time-consuming, isn't it?
TP: Yeah, and it's expensive, too! When you go to someone like a “Musikladen,” in Germany – or a WNET, in New York – you don't just say, “Oh, hey, go look for a Roy Buchanan film for me, and let me know what you come up with.” You have to pay for an archive search – it's like $700 or $800, just to know if they've got something!
CR: Wow! That might be an education for people – it doesn't sound like much, but, of course, you do this enough...
TP: Hey, you know what? I could license the Roy Buchanan PBS Bill Graham special, but you know why I don't? Because PBS charges for video licensing by the second.
CR: By the second?
TP: And that's the reality of bigtime video music licensing. Most of those places license snippets for documentaries, but just think of that – every time on VH1, when they're doing [a documentary] like, “Whatever Happened to the Blind Lemon Squeezers?” – if there's footage of them, it probably cost about $2.50 a second.
CR: Well, I guess we'll just have to stay tuned.
TP: We'll see what happens.
CHAIRMAN RALPH (CR): What did Roy give Danny, and vice versa, from your perspective, since you've seen them both often enough to comment?
TP: My favorite quote on this is, “I think that Roy wrote the book, and Danny added his own chapter.” I mean, to me – the style that Roy invented, I call it, “Telecaster on Mars,” or “James Burton on acid.” James Burton was never that wild. He was always that good, but he was never that phrase-y, and introverted. To me, Roy really, really invented that “Telecaster on Mars” style, and I really do feel like in the beginning, that's what Danny based his style on.
But then, Roy continued to just be sort of a blues guy – and Danny had that incredible jazz phase, with REDNECK JAZZ, and just became a lot more versatile, and a lot more accomplished than Roy. I mean, Roy had chops, but Danny was the amazing technician. I don't hear any of Danny Gatton in Roy Buchanan, myself. I hear tons of Roy in Danny.
CR: Of course, Roy did stick more with the blues and R&B kind of stuff, too, didn't he?
TP: Yeah. Danny had his banjo background, which had a lot to do with his right hand technique, the rolling fingers stuff – Danny was just all over the place, man. If the two played together, Danny would just play circles around Roy, but each had his own thing. To me, Roy was much more soulful, and more deeply emotional than Danny, in a general way. I mean, Danny had his “Harlem Nocturne,” but Roy had a whole bunch of stuff like that, where it was pretty deep, emotionally.
CR: In many ways, considering what happened to them, career-wise – they both suffered from that same syndrome of “guitar hero that couldn't quite find their niche.”
TP: Yeah, but you know what? It was cool, because once Danny got his [major label] opportunity [with Elektra Records], it spurred him on to make one of the best records of his career. 88 ELMIRA ST has got so much great stuff on it. To me, that and UNFINISHED BUSINESS are the two pinnacles of the Danny Gatton that we know. And the other Danny Gatton is the Lenny Breau, [and] REDNECK JAZZ guy. That album is a wonderful statement, too, but UNFINISHED BUSINESS and 88 ELMIRA, to me, are the two definitive Danny statements.
CR: Yeah, that's true. That album has a lot of great stuff on it...
TP: And I'm so pleased that I was not only able to re-release that album, but remaster it. I'm so pleased about the way we improved the sound on the UNFINISHED BUSINESS reissue. It [the original LP release] was really, really flat-sounding and low output – you had to crank the stereo up, and it just didn't pop.
And when it went from LP to CD the first time, I disagreed with the song choice. Norma [Gatton] added a couple of additional tracks, so I decided to leave one of those off [“Georgia On My Mind”]. And that bonus cut I culled from those Danny home demos, I think it's a really great cut, too. Actually, THE HUMBLER STAKES HIS CLAIM has not really sold that well – hasn't sold nearly as good as Unfinished Business.
CR: It would represent a prime period of his live career, I think, that people would be interested in.
TP: The only thing I can guess is that maybe some people are turned off by the lower sonic quality, but, to me – I think it's killer.
CR: One thing record companies always argue against, when they talk about releasing famous bootleg tapes is: “Well, they already have it, so what's the point of doing it?”
TP: Oh, no, honestly – this stuff has not been circulating in bootleg circles at all. That was one of the main impetuses for me, if that's the word (laughs), to go ahead with it: “Yeah! I knew the collectors didn't have this shit.” Maybe word just hasn't gotten out enough yet, I don't know.
CR: Well, maybe – like a lot of things associated with Danny, it's gonna take awhile to seep through to the popular culture, perhaps.
TP: Yes, and no – because UNFINISHED BUSINESS is selling well. I'm gonna go to the distributor website and check some numbers... OK, let's see: LIVE IN '77 has sold better than I thought: 3,900. That's pretty good. The first Roy [CD: AMERICAN AXE] sold over 10,000 now. The AMAZING GRACE one has sold 2,648 [copies]. That's in two years.
CR: In two years – and how about UNFINISHED BUSINESS?
TP: It is 4,450 [copies], and that's a reissue.
CR: That's not bad – maybe you should go into the reissue business, I guess.
TP: Well, they're great to do. I mean, the way I've been doing 'em, the overhead is generally low, and it's fun. I enjoy doing it. Let's ses: OH, NO! MORE BLAZING TELECASTERS has sold decently, not as well as I thought it would. It's sold about 2,200. Of course, the first BLAZING TELECASTERS, since it started out on LP, it's probably well over 15,000 by now.
CR: Yeah, I know. That's kind of, one of the more obscure points of Danny's career, for the non-initiate. I imagine that was part of its appeal all along, wasn't it?
TP: Yeah, I guess so. And I think, from the guitar crowd, it would raise an eyebrow to hear, “Oh, Tom Principato and Danny Gatton [worked] together,” even though I never considered myself in the same league – nor do I think a lot of other people did, either. But I think I was known as a really good guitarist....and I actually got Danny to rehearse (laughs)!
CR: Which was something he was well-known for never doing...
TP: Yes, and I'll tell you – I have at least one of the rehearsals taped, and he's definitely bitching on it (more laughter on this point).
CR: Well, there you go – you could always release a snippet of that, I guess. Are we actually in danger of seeing Danny's and Roy's [musical] footprint disappearing?
TP: Well, that's the way to perpetuate legacies. I mean, Jimi Hendrix has been really lucky that way.
RH: Well, we'll see – maybe if you get that other Roy stuff out, that'll kick-start something. Of course, there's Danny's stuff on video, too, right? Although the quality is maybe not that great... in the case of the Redneck Jazz [Explosion] stuff [from the 1978 Cellar Door run in Washington, D.C.], it's very grainy, and it looks like it was shot underwater.
TP: Actually, I'll tell you, I have been in touch with the guy that filmed that [gig] – That's actually very good quality filming, and it's in color. The grainy black and white [version] you're thinking about is the reference [film] from Bob Dawson, the engineer. He stuck a black and white camera in the balcony of the Cellar Door, so he could see what was going on during the remote recording. But there was another guy,that filmed Danny, that whole night. I've been in touch with him – a couple of the clips are color, and they're on Youtube. They're all wearing those...
RH: Those horrible matching T-shirts, with their beer bellies sticking out – but people would want to see that.
TP: Exactly. I've been on him, I've been on him, I've been on him, and he keeps saying: “Oh, it's taking me so long to convert these over to digital.” For some reason, he's hemming and hawing, and he's not coming through – I would love to release that stuff, but I can't get him to give it up.
CR: Once again, that goes back to the politics of what it takes to get something like that done. It's not an easy business, is it?
TP: No, it isn't. I mean, if something drops into my lap, I probably might try to jump on it. But I'm definitely not gonna do all this archive searching that I used to do, and believe me, I've done a lot of it.
CR: And it's very time-consuming, isn't it?
TP: Yeah, and it's expensive, too! When you go to someone like a “Musikladen,” in Germany – or a WNET, in New York – you don't just say, “Oh, hey, go look for a Roy Buchanan film for me, and let me know what you come up with.” You have to pay for an archive search – it's like $700 or $800, just to know if they've got something!
CR: Wow! That might be an education for people – it doesn't sound like much, but, of course, you do this enough...
TP: Hey, you know what? I could license the Roy Buchanan PBS Bill Graham special, but you know why I don't? Because PBS charges for video licensing by the second.
CR: By the second?
TP: And that's the reality of bigtime video music licensing. Most of those places license snippets for documentaries, but just think of that – every time on VH1, when they're doing [a documentary] like, “Whatever Happened to the Blind Lemon Squeezers?” – if there's footage of them, it probably cost about $2.50 a second.
CR: Well, I guess we'll just have to stay tuned.
TP: We'll see what happens.
TOM PRINCIPATO SPEAKS, PT. I (1/9/11)
A TALE OF TWO LIVE ALBUMS
DANNY GATTON (LIVE IN 1977: THE HUMBLER STAKES HIS CLAIM)
ROY BUCHANAN (LIVE: AMAZING GRACE)
INTERVIEW WITH TOM PRINCIPATO: PART ONE (1/9/11)
A man of many styles, guitarist Tom Principato makes a point of keeping busy on multiple fronts. First, he's released his first album of all-original material, A PART OF ME, on his Powerhouse Records label (see www.tomprincipato.com/ for details). A PART OF ME features several key D.C.-aea figures who have played with Tom, including Josh Howell, Tommy Lepson, Jay Turner and Steve Wolf...and some "out of towners" in Brian Auger, and Chuck Leavell...we'll get back to that topic later.
Secondly, Tom has released live albums by Danny Gatton (LIVE IN 1977: THE HUMBLER STAKES HIS CLAIM, for which I wrote the liner notes), and Roy Buchanan (LIVE: AMAZING GRACE), which will shed further light on what both these late, departed guitar masters did on the live music trail -- where they did some of their best and brightest work, to be sure. With all this activity, I found it natural to call Tom, and shed further light on the making of these projects -- starting with the two live albums.
CHAIRMAN RALPH(CR): So, anyway, the purpose is to go over some of these things...let's take 'em one at a time. To do the Danny live album [LIVE IN 1977: THE HUMBLER STAKES HIS CLAIM], did we have to do anything extraordinary to make that a release-quality record?
TP: Not really. That was the easier of the two, because it was all recorded by the same guy. Part of that is owed to Chris Murphy, Danny's soundman of the time – who set up a couple mikes in the audience, and recorded them that way, rather than the usual sterile (sound) board mix.
CR: Which pretty much suffocates any signs of life of the band, as we know. So was he the main man on most of these recordings?
TP: Right. He recorded all of it. I had been in touch with him sporadically, and kept saying, “Hey, Chris, you got any tapes of Danny?” Because I knew he must have something – he was very good. He's the same guy that taped BLAZING TELECASTERS. I knew he usually had that machine running. So, every now and again he'd go, “Well, yeah, I don't know – let me dig me around, I'll let you know.”
CR: And he'd kind of hem and haw.
TP: Right. Then one day, he called up and said, “Yeah, I got some stuff, let me come on over.” He had a briefcase full of cassettes, and I went through a lot of 'em. There was quite a bit of looking, and searching, and poring over – listening, and evaluating.
CR: For the Roy album [LIVE: AMAZING GRACE], how did we go about approaching that?
TP: That was considerably more involved. Well, there's a guy that I know, Bob Davis. He's a big, big music collector and Roy fanatic in New England. I've sort of used him as a consultant, because I don't know of anyone who has more live and bootleg recordings of Roy Buchanan. I mean, I consider this guy the foremost source for Roy stuff in the world. So I'm always asking him to funnel me stuff.
And I also have done some archiving searching, so I was aware – through some searching I had done at PBS, in New York – of this “Vibrations” TV show that Roy did [in 1972], right after the PBS special that Bill Graham hosted. And somebody already had the audio. Actually, a lot of this stuff, we aware of – because Judy Buchanan had a lot of tapes that Roy had been given, and copies have been circulating...from Judy.
So I was aware of these two killer takes of “Malaguena” for this “Vibrations” PBS show – and I knew that if, and when, I was ever able to strike another deal with Judy Buchanan for a second album, “Malaguena” had to be on it. So I just picked the shorter [version] of the two, because they're both pretty long, anyway.
CR: I think one of my favorite single takes is the one from Pennsylvania [“Good God Have Mercy”: Chestnut Cabaret, 1978], where you can actually hear the beer bottles clinking.
TP: Yeah, that's something, and I'll tell you what. Sonically, that song barely made it to the album. It really is the crappiest-sounding cut, but the performance is so cool, I just don't care – because, you know, these kind of albums are about the music, anyway, it's not for audiophiles. So, fuck it, put on the good shit (laughs). And I think most people are happy that I take that approach. They just want the music. If you wanna release something that's Roy at his peak, you're gonna have to go with the limitations of whatever you found in the '70s. I'd rather [hear] him wailing away on a sonically “not as good” performance, than some nice pristine thing that's not as cool musically.
CR: The version of “Green Onions” that closes the CD is kind of an example of that, too.
TP: You know what's the nice about the source for that? That's Eddie Wilson, at Armadillo World Headquarters, in Austin – and he's an eccentric, but a pretty cool guy. And I'll tell you, he's sitting on a motherlode of stuff, because he's really one of the few guys in the '70s that was making quality videos and audio recordings of some of the real greats...he keeps telling me, “Yeah, I'm gonna get around to this,” and, “Yeah, we're doing that.”
He seems to have a lot of trouble focusing and getting stuff done, but whenever I ask him for anything, he's always very generous with it. There's a bunch of great black and white videos of Roy at the Armadillo. A couple of them have filtered through to Youtube – there's one of him singing “C.C. Rider.” But there's at least a half a dozen others I've seen – there's a couple with Billy Price, [the late Dick] Heintze's on the organ, Robbie Magruder on drums...so it's some cool shit.
CR: Once you resolved all the different sonic issues, how did we approach the strategy of the compiling and sequencing of this material?
TP: Well, the sonic condition of the songs has something to do with the way I sequenced [LIVE: AMAZING GRACE] – and I did choose the best-sounding stuff to go first, the stuff from the '80s [“Hot Cha,” and “Amazing Grace,” Lone Star Cafe, New York City, NY, 1983]. Those really were the best-sounding recordings. I found that was a lot easier to start out good, and sort of filter down to the lesser, rather than just start out weak, and filter up to the better, you know (laughs)? I can you tell this – I have scoured the world, and there is an extremely limited amount of stuff from that ['70s peak] era that's available. One unfortunate thing, too, is, he pretty much did the same set every night.
But, you know, I'll tell you honestly – we dug up video of four songs from “Musikladen,” in the early '70s, on German TV. The audio from one of those [“The Messiah Will Come Again”] is on the CD – but it's color, it's beautifully filmed, it's Roy at his peak. The band is great. There's one song that's not one of the usual things for him. I'd love to do a DVD of those four color clips, and a few of the Armadillo black and white clips. That would be a really great DVD, but I haven't been able to convince Judy to do that yet.
CR: People tend to forget the human dimension that gets tied up in this...I mean, she didn't just lose a great guitar player, she lost her husband.
TP: Not only that, and it was under really terrible circumstances, too.
CR: Of course, the “strange Roy” stuff – that's part of the folklore, too, isn't it?
TP: Oh, yeah, right. Right. Well, you know, isn't it odd, too, that he and Danny were probably bipolar, or at least suffered from depression of some sort? It's odd. Danny kept it hidden very well.
CR: Yes, he did...and I suspect, with Roy, it was probably the same way, too.
TP: Actually, I get the opposite [impression]. You know, the one night that I played with him at the Bayou, I sat in the dressing room with him – he didn't say a damn word. He really was an introvert, a loner type, and Danny wasn't like at all. He was very affable, very approachable, very outgoing – but Roy was very dark, and looked down at the floor, and didn't say anything. It was pretty different.
CR: So was that a letdown for you, to experience that?
TP: Well, no – I mean, I used to go see him play. I saw him do a couple shows where he turned his back to the audience, and that kind of stuff – he already had his reputation for being quirky. Early on, I had a really bad experience with Larry Carlton, where I tried to approach him at a gig one night, and he just reamed me a new asshole. So with Roy, I've always been very, very cautious about even appearing to bother anybody. And it's such a disappointment when one of your heroes turns out to be a big fuckin' jerk.
CR: I think that's why I an Hunter likes to say, “Trust the message, not the messenger...” I think that's a very good way to put it.
TP: Right. Oddly enough, I had a song demo – I was just starting out to write songs, and they were instrumentals. I gave Roy a cassette of two or three songs that I thought he might be interested in, and he just thanked me, put it in his pocket, and that was it.
CR: And that was the last you ever heard of it. Typical, right?
TP (laughs): Yeah! But even then, when I gave it [the demo tape] to him, he really didn't say anything.
CR: There are, of course, those two distinct phases of Roy, and people either like the '70s, or the '80s, but a lot of people don't necessarily like both [eras]. So, if you were on a desert island, and you were taking one of those live tapes with you, what era would you come down on, Tom? And why?
TP: '70s – because of the accompaniment, and freshness of the impression. There started to be this gradual rise and peak for Roy, starting around 1970, with the Bill Graham PBS special. He had a really great band in the Snakestretchers: he starts to rise, and he's really sort of catching on. A couple of albums [later], he's a bonafide guitar hero. Then he did lose the Snakestretchers, but the next band he had after that with Malcolm Lukens, Byrd Foster, and the bass player – that was a great fuckin' band, too. That's the band on the “Austin City Limits” video, which is really one of the best films of Roy. So – '70 to '78, I think, is really Roy's peak. He's still playing the '53 Tele, and just wailing his ass off.
CR: So what do you think changed for him, that makes the other ['80s] era not as desirable, from your point of view?
TP: Well, once you start using pickup bands, there's a lot less of that interaction – with Roy as a backdrop. The delivery sort of tends to become a little generic, I think. For example, on that “Rockpalast” European video – I think Roy is having a pretty decent night as a guitarist, but the band is really, really sort of inhibiting what's going on, because it's just so disconnected from him...I mean, you can see they're all excited to play with him, but they just can't pull it off. And also, too, they're not really his peers – whereas his other bands...
CR: They were. To be fair, I think Roy suffered from the same syndrome [as] a lot of guitar heroes of that era suffered from, which was inconsistent material...because, if you don't write your own stuff, or don't write a lot of it...then you tend to be dependent on what people give you. And you either can make something of it, or you can't.
TP: Well,yeah, his Atlantic period was disappointing. Even what on paper should have been great – like, a pairing with the Tele player from Booker T [& The MGs], Steve Cropper, doing “Green Onions” – sounds like that would be fantastic. But it's actually pretty long, and boring, and rambling. Also, fusion was starting to be popular, and they were trying to sort of, turn him into that...just have him be something that he wasn't.
CR: A lot of people didn't really know how to deal with the onslaught of fusion.
TP: Yeah. But he had a bunch of real lame material forced down his throat in the Atlantic years. I mean, what are you gonna do? Even if you're not that excited about it, after you've recorded it, you're sort of beholden to go out and perform it live, anyway. It's your current stuff.
DANNY GATTON (LIVE IN 1977: THE HUMBLER STAKES HIS CLAIM)
ROY BUCHANAN (LIVE: AMAZING GRACE)
INTERVIEW WITH TOM PRINCIPATO: PART ONE (1/9/11)
A man of many styles, guitarist Tom Principato makes a point of keeping busy on multiple fronts. First, he's released his first album of all-original material, A PART OF ME, on his Powerhouse Records label (see www.tomprincipato.com/ for details). A PART OF ME features several key D.C.-aea figures who have played with Tom, including Josh Howell, Tommy Lepson, Jay Turner and Steve Wolf...and some "out of towners" in Brian Auger, and Chuck Leavell...we'll get back to that topic later.
Secondly, Tom has released live albums by Danny Gatton (LIVE IN 1977: THE HUMBLER STAKES HIS CLAIM, for which I wrote the liner notes), and Roy Buchanan (LIVE: AMAZING GRACE), which will shed further light on what both these late, departed guitar masters did on the live music trail -- where they did some of their best and brightest work, to be sure. With all this activity, I found it natural to call Tom, and shed further light on the making of these projects -- starting with the two live albums.
CHAIRMAN RALPH(CR): So, anyway, the purpose is to go over some of these things...let's take 'em one at a time. To do the Danny live album [LIVE IN 1977: THE HUMBLER STAKES HIS CLAIM], did we have to do anything extraordinary to make that a release-quality record?
TP: Not really. That was the easier of the two, because it was all recorded by the same guy. Part of that is owed to Chris Murphy, Danny's soundman of the time – who set up a couple mikes in the audience, and recorded them that way, rather than the usual sterile (sound) board mix.
CR: Which pretty much suffocates any signs of life of the band, as we know. So was he the main man on most of these recordings?
TP: Right. He recorded all of it. I had been in touch with him sporadically, and kept saying, “Hey, Chris, you got any tapes of Danny?” Because I knew he must have something – he was very good. He's the same guy that taped BLAZING TELECASTERS. I knew he usually had that machine running. So, every now and again he'd go, “Well, yeah, I don't know – let me dig me around, I'll let you know.”
CR: And he'd kind of hem and haw.
TP: Right. Then one day, he called up and said, “Yeah, I got some stuff, let me come on over.” He had a briefcase full of cassettes, and I went through a lot of 'em. There was quite a bit of looking, and searching, and poring over – listening, and evaluating.
CR: For the Roy album [LIVE: AMAZING GRACE], how did we go about approaching that?
TP: That was considerably more involved. Well, there's a guy that I know, Bob Davis. He's a big, big music collector and Roy fanatic in New England. I've sort of used him as a consultant, because I don't know of anyone who has more live and bootleg recordings of Roy Buchanan. I mean, I consider this guy the foremost source for Roy stuff in the world. So I'm always asking him to funnel me stuff.
And I also have done some archiving searching, so I was aware – through some searching I had done at PBS, in New York – of this “Vibrations” TV show that Roy did [in 1972], right after the PBS special that Bill Graham hosted. And somebody already had the audio. Actually, a lot of this stuff, we aware of – because Judy Buchanan had a lot of tapes that Roy had been given, and copies have been circulating...from Judy.
So I was aware of these two killer takes of “Malaguena” for this “Vibrations” PBS show – and I knew that if, and when, I was ever able to strike another deal with Judy Buchanan for a second album, “Malaguena” had to be on it. So I just picked the shorter [version] of the two, because they're both pretty long, anyway.
CR: I think one of my favorite single takes is the one from Pennsylvania [“Good God Have Mercy”: Chestnut Cabaret, 1978], where you can actually hear the beer bottles clinking.
TP: Yeah, that's something, and I'll tell you what. Sonically, that song barely made it to the album. It really is the crappiest-sounding cut, but the performance is so cool, I just don't care – because, you know, these kind of albums are about the music, anyway, it's not for audiophiles. So, fuck it, put on the good shit (laughs). And I think most people are happy that I take that approach. They just want the music. If you wanna release something that's Roy at his peak, you're gonna have to go with the limitations of whatever you found in the '70s. I'd rather [hear] him wailing away on a sonically “not as good” performance, than some nice pristine thing that's not as cool musically.
CR: The version of “Green Onions” that closes the CD is kind of an example of that, too.
TP: You know what's the nice about the source for that? That's Eddie Wilson, at Armadillo World Headquarters, in Austin – and he's an eccentric, but a pretty cool guy. And I'll tell you, he's sitting on a motherlode of stuff, because he's really one of the few guys in the '70s that was making quality videos and audio recordings of some of the real greats...he keeps telling me, “Yeah, I'm gonna get around to this,” and, “Yeah, we're doing that.”
He seems to have a lot of trouble focusing and getting stuff done, but whenever I ask him for anything, he's always very generous with it. There's a bunch of great black and white videos of Roy at the Armadillo. A couple of them have filtered through to Youtube – there's one of him singing “C.C. Rider.” But there's at least a half a dozen others I've seen – there's a couple with Billy Price, [the late Dick] Heintze's on the organ, Robbie Magruder on drums...so it's some cool shit.
CR: Once you resolved all the different sonic issues, how did we approach the strategy of the compiling and sequencing of this material?
TP: Well, the sonic condition of the songs has something to do with the way I sequenced [LIVE: AMAZING GRACE] – and I did choose the best-sounding stuff to go first, the stuff from the '80s [“Hot Cha,” and “Amazing Grace,” Lone Star Cafe, New York City, NY, 1983]. Those really were the best-sounding recordings. I found that was a lot easier to start out good, and sort of filter down to the lesser, rather than just start out weak, and filter up to the better, you know (laughs)? I can you tell this – I have scoured the world, and there is an extremely limited amount of stuff from that ['70s peak] era that's available. One unfortunate thing, too, is, he pretty much did the same set every night.
But, you know, I'll tell you honestly – we dug up video of four songs from “Musikladen,” in the early '70s, on German TV. The audio from one of those [“The Messiah Will Come Again”] is on the CD – but it's color, it's beautifully filmed, it's Roy at his peak. The band is great. There's one song that's not one of the usual things for him. I'd love to do a DVD of those four color clips, and a few of the Armadillo black and white clips. That would be a really great DVD, but I haven't been able to convince Judy to do that yet.
CR: People tend to forget the human dimension that gets tied up in this...I mean, she didn't just lose a great guitar player, she lost her husband.
TP: Not only that, and it was under really terrible circumstances, too.
CR: Of course, the “strange Roy” stuff – that's part of the folklore, too, isn't it?
TP: Oh, yeah, right. Right. Well, you know, isn't it odd, too, that he and Danny were probably bipolar, or at least suffered from depression of some sort? It's odd. Danny kept it hidden very well.
CR: Yes, he did...and I suspect, with Roy, it was probably the same way, too.
TP: Actually, I get the opposite [impression]. You know, the one night that I played with him at the Bayou, I sat in the dressing room with him – he didn't say a damn word. He really was an introvert, a loner type, and Danny wasn't like at all. He was very affable, very approachable, very outgoing – but Roy was very dark, and looked down at the floor, and didn't say anything. It was pretty different.
CR: So was that a letdown for you, to experience that?
TP: Well, no – I mean, I used to go see him play. I saw him do a couple shows where he turned his back to the audience, and that kind of stuff – he already had his reputation for being quirky. Early on, I had a really bad experience with Larry Carlton, where I tried to approach him at a gig one night, and he just reamed me a new asshole. So with Roy, I've always been very, very cautious about even appearing to bother anybody. And it's such a disappointment when one of your heroes turns out to be a big fuckin' jerk.
CR: I think that's why I an Hunter likes to say, “Trust the message, not the messenger...” I think that's a very good way to put it.
TP: Right. Oddly enough, I had a song demo – I was just starting out to write songs, and they were instrumentals. I gave Roy a cassette of two or three songs that I thought he might be interested in, and he just thanked me, put it in his pocket, and that was it.
CR: And that was the last you ever heard of it. Typical, right?
TP (laughs): Yeah! But even then, when I gave it [the demo tape] to him, he really didn't say anything.
CR: There are, of course, those two distinct phases of Roy, and people either like the '70s, or the '80s, but a lot of people don't necessarily like both [eras]. So, if you were on a desert island, and you were taking one of those live tapes with you, what era would you come down on, Tom? And why?
TP: '70s – because of the accompaniment, and freshness of the impression. There started to be this gradual rise and peak for Roy, starting around 1970, with the Bill Graham PBS special. He had a really great band in the Snakestretchers: he starts to rise, and he's really sort of catching on. A couple of albums [later], he's a bonafide guitar hero. Then he did lose the Snakestretchers, but the next band he had after that with Malcolm Lukens, Byrd Foster, and the bass player – that was a great fuckin' band, too. That's the band on the “Austin City Limits” video, which is really one of the best films of Roy. So – '70 to '78, I think, is really Roy's peak. He's still playing the '53 Tele, and just wailing his ass off.
CR: So what do you think changed for him, that makes the other ['80s] era not as desirable, from your point of view?
TP: Well, once you start using pickup bands, there's a lot less of that interaction – with Roy as a backdrop. The delivery sort of tends to become a little generic, I think. For example, on that “Rockpalast” European video – I think Roy is having a pretty decent night as a guitarist, but the band is really, really sort of inhibiting what's going on, because it's just so disconnected from him...I mean, you can see they're all excited to play with him, but they just can't pull it off. And also, too, they're not really his peers – whereas his other bands...
CR: They were. To be fair, I think Roy suffered from the same syndrome [as] a lot of guitar heroes of that era suffered from, which was inconsistent material...because, if you don't write your own stuff, or don't write a lot of it...then you tend to be dependent on what people give you. And you either can make something of it, or you can't.
TP: Well,yeah, his Atlantic period was disappointing. Even what on paper should have been great – like, a pairing with the Tele player from Booker T [& The MGs], Steve Cropper, doing “Green Onions” – sounds like that would be fantastic. But it's actually pretty long, and boring, and rambling. Also, fusion was starting to be popular, and they were trying to sort of, turn him into that...just have him be something that he wasn't.
CR: A lot of people didn't really know how to deal with the onslaught of fusion.
TP: Yeah. But he had a bunch of real lame material forced down his throat in the Atlantic years. I mean, what are you gonna do? Even if you're not that excited about it, after you've recorded it, you're sort of beholden to go out and perform it live, anyway. It's your current stuff.
NPR INTERVIEW: EXTENDED VERSION (9/30/09)
As promised, National Public Radio's long-awaited piece on Danny Gatton ran on its flagship program ("All Things Considered"), on October 4, 2009: 15 years to the day that the late instrumental musical guitar master -- known as "The Humbler," "The Master Blaster Of The Telecaster," "The World's Greatest Unknown Guitar Player," or simply, "The Telemaster," take your pick -- took his own life, and left us way too soon.
NPR's piece offered a four-and-a-half-minute primer on Gatton's legend, with all basics present and correct, as recounted by Tom Principato, longtime bassist John Previti -- who recalled Danny referring to himself as a "Whitman sampler of music" -- and myself, who'd been interviewed (9/30/09) as the author of UNFINISHED BUSINESS: THE LIFE & TIMES OF DANNY GATTON.
Kudos to NPR's producer, Phil Harrell, for being able to pack so much into such a narrow furrow, which -- of course -- is what radio production is all about!
For those who haven't heard the show, go here to find it:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=113485730
You can also read a complete transcript of all the remarks from those who participated in the program, including myself. Inevitably, my interview with Phil contained way more than he could use on the air, so here is our chat, as I recorded it, on my end. For simplicity, I grouped my responses by subject, as we talked (with minor edits to improve continuity, and eliminate repetition)...enjoy!
INTERVIEW WITH PHIL HARRELL
WHAT ARE THE MOST DISTINCTIVE ERAS OF DANNY GATTON'S CARRER?
Well, there's a couple different periods you can divide it into – the first one would, of course, would be “The Teen Phenom Period,” where he starts experimenting with multi-tracking and overdubbing like his main musical hero, Les Paul.
And, from there, it sort of segues into playing with kids in the neighborhood, and eventually, being recognized by older people that he's playing with in the area, and he starts playing in all these different bands -- bar bands, dance bands, whatever you want to call them.
So there's that basic era, and where it really starts to coalesce into something more serious, of course, is when he gets a little older, in his early '20s. By the late '60s, he's touring with Bobby Charles, a soul guy. He's basically starting out as a hired gun, getting whatever experience he can -- and, in between, making the different forays to places like Nashville -- hoping that somebody will pick up on him, and recognize his talent.
But the real snowball that goes down the hill – in terms of recgonition, at least locally – is when he joins Liz Meyer's bluegrass band, in the early '70s. That's where you start to hear him develop – at least from some of the live tapes I've acquired – those fat runs, rippling banjjo-like rolls, and country experiments with tone...all those things that became so important to the evolution of his style – along with, of course, the melodic sensibility, and his sense of jazz improvisation. And that's the blender that makes up Danny Gatton, the musician.
Like I said, I've got a bootleg recording that somebody sent me – it's from Lisner Auditorium, in Washington, D.C., in 1973. He's basically getting out the electric, and getting down on his signature showcase of that time, “Orange Blossom Special” -- which, in later years, becomes the vehicle for a medley to go into anything and everything from movie themes, to the “Linus And Lucy” theme, and back again.
WASN'T DANNY'S DAD A MUSICIAN, TOO?
That's right – his dad played in big bands in his younger days, before his family put a little pressure on him. You get that question of, “Are you gonna make a living playing that thing, son?” And so, he became a machinist, basically -- and, of course, the cycle would be repreated when Danny comes of age, and his father says, “That's a nice a way to express yourself, son, but it's no way to make a living.”
HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE DANNY GATTON'S STYLE?
Well, I guess there's two phrases I like to use for that. Number one would be, “A living treasury of American musical styles” -- the roots of music, specifically country, jazz, a little bit of bluegrass – and, of course, the blues, a fixation which became quite a bit more pronounced toward the end.
That's one phrase, because -- unlike a lot of artists who tend to stick to one narrow furrow, Danny, as you probably are very well aware, mixed all of those styles up...sometimes, within the space of a song, or even a solo. So that's description number one.
The other description I'd use is, “The musical sound of thinking out loud,” and what I mean by that is – when you hear something like the live version of “Linus And Lucy” (from PORTRAITS) which then segues into this frenzied “Orange Blossom Special” medley, even within the solos he plays – you can literally almost hear him switching off from this thought, to the next, to the next.
And what's fascinating for the listener is -- you're sitting at home, thinking, “Well, how's he ever going to get out of this?” And somehow, he always does. Like a cat, he kind of lands on his feet. So that's the other phrase I would tend to use.
WHAT DO YOU CONSIDER THE DEFINITIVE DANNY GATTON ALBUM?
Well, I wouldn't have called the book UNFINISHED BUSINESS, obviously, if I didn't like the album. So that's one, because it's all-instrumental, and you hear him go through all the different styles that I've just described. So I would point to that.
Earlier in his career, I would look at REDNECK JAZZ as being the definitive statement – again, going from country, to the more redneck stuff, as you would say, the “honky-tonk Eric Clapton” -- to the lengthy instrumental explorations that he does on the live version of “Ode To Billy Joe,” and the elaborate multi-tracking on instrumentals like “Sax Fifth Avenue.”
So, I would point to that – and, later, toward the end of his career, I think he was doing some of his very best material, actually. I would suggest LIVE 9/9/94, which was not long before he passed – it shows you what he sounded like live, no tricks, no gimmicks, just Danny with his rhythm section.
And I would also point to the [RELENTLESS] album that he did with [keyboardist] Joey DeFrancesco – that's another one, if you want to hear him do the pure jazz kind of stuff that he was so good at, you listen to something like his version of “Well You Needn't”...it doesn't get any faster than that.
DANNY HAD SEVERAL BRUSHES WITH FAME, DIDN'T HE?
Well, there were many [brushes with fame], and this is something that gets explored in the book, at great length. Initially, perhaps, the first call you might suggest – or that might come to mind, even locally – was [his tenure] with the Redneck Jazz Explosion, which fused his country and jazz explorations into a more cohesive statement. And, along the way, he ran into Lowell George, from Little Feat – have you ever heard this story?
I heard different versions of this, and I wasn't able to totally pin them down, but he went with his buddy, Phil Zavarella, the owner of Zavarella's Music [to see Lowell at Lisner Auditorium]...somehow, they got backstage, and apparently, Lowell made some comments -– or, supposedly, made some overtures to joining his new band –- he was touring solo, having just left Little Feat. And then, the very next night, he dies; that was a bit of a shock to everyone. As Phil mentioned, Danny said, “Wow, I just had seen him a few hours earlier.”
Steve Wolf, the bass player from many area bands – including Redneck Jazz Explosion – swears that Danny told him he had had talks with Lowell, and was lobbying to add him to the rhythm section, and form a bans. Now, there's a lot of debate about those stories, but what's clear, at least, is that Danny sort of thought that he might be able to go somewhere if he was connected with Lowell, in some way. Don't forget, he had just been to the West Coast.
So that might be brush number one. Brush number two would be some of the overtures that he got during the '80s – John Fogerty wanted him to join his touring band, when he resurrected his career after CENTERFIELD. Have you heard that story?
Well, what happened, basically – according to his drummer, Dave Elliott -- Danny was in the garage, working on a car, when Fogerty called him up -- and made the offer. And he [Danny] said, “Well, I'll think about it,” and that was it. He forgot to call back, apparently, and that's why that didn't go anywhere – such was his reptuation, people [of Fogerty's caliber] would call him on an occasional, semi-regular basis, and think enough of him to add him, at least, as kind of a prominent hired gun to their bands.
And then you've got, maybe, the third major brush, of course – as many people in your area would see it – with the signing of the major label deal with Elektra Records. Right out of the box, he gets a Grammy nominated-albuim in 88 ELMIRA ST. And, unforutnately, it loses that year to Eric Johnson. So there's another example of coming, “Oh, so close, oh, so near, and yet so far” -- because, from the label's perspective, he fails to tour as much as he could to support the records. Therefore, they end up dropping him.
And that sets up the final phase of his career – he goes back to doing these independent one-off records, and it's re-establishing himself through that market, as it were. Why did it take so long [to get signed]? Well, to put it plainly, he didn't tour that much outside of his homegrown area.
As a musician, of course,. “touring is advertising,” as they like to say – if you don't spend that time going out to different areas, and trying to win over different audiences, then, basically, you're not going to be as well-known as somebody who does do that. I mean, technically, he only really did a couple national tours – on his own behalf, [including] the second Elektra album, CRUISIN' DEUCES...and then, of course, earlier in his career as a hired gun for Roger Miller.
They actually went to places like Australia during that era. This would be the late '70s, early '80s. I think I make a comment on this in the book – it's almost as if Jimmy Page, of Led Zeppelin, decided to stick with playing the local pub, and you could see him there every weekend, but he would never have gone beyond that.
DID PEOPLE REALLY CALL HIM "THE HUMBLER"?
That [“The Humbler”] was a nickname going around for quite awhile – that was, of course, stemming from the live tape with Robert Gordon that's now on CD. I've heard other variations on that [nickname]. Many people call him “the greatest unknown guitar player you've never heard”. Some people refer to him as “The Master Bnlaster of The Telecaster,” some, “The Telemaster” -- it seemed to almost change with the mood of the people who saw him, whatever show they saw...because, as you know, no two Danny Gatton shows were quite the same.
WHY DID DANNY GATTON KILL HIMSELF?
Well, as you probably know – there's a whole chapter dedicated to the issues arising from that [suicide death]. Number one, I think he had a long-standing issue with depression – a lot of anecdotes that I got from people, seem to bear that out.
For example, when [former Commander Cody guitarist] Bill Kirchen moved to Washington, D.C., Danny helped him get acquainted with the scene. He gave him gigs that he either didn't want to do, or didn't have time to do. One day, he [Kirchen] remembered being on a corporate gig with him – and, from out of the blue, Danny said something along the lines of, “Don't you just hate this shit?”
Bill looked at him, and thought he was joking, but it dawned on him that he was serious. And, when he tried to probe a little further, Danny kind of shut down, and didn't say anything more about it – so there were anecdotes like that, which were mentioned in the book, that would seem to suggest that [perception].
Number two, he had some physical health issues. And this is something that's [subject to] a little debate – because he was cremated afterwards, so there's no complete report. But he seemed to feel – or had either suffered a series of mini-strokes. This had impared his ability to play. And he had apparently stated, if that happened, he definitely wouldn't want to stick around – because that was the only thing -- other than working on his cars -- that gave him satisfaction, that he was able to do.
So, you've got those two forces coming together – and, as his widow Jan suggested, it was perhaps a case of all the stars falling into alignment, [including] his fears for his health, fears for his security, and...by implication...his family's security...all coming together in a mixture, I guess, of anger and frustration with his own situation. That might be the simplest way to explain it.
Many, many people expressed that sentiment, that it [Danny's action] sort of ccame from out of the blue – there were a few people who did say, “It wasn't the first time he tried, it wsa the first time he'd succeeded.” But Danny had a way of compartmentalizing his life, to the extent that some people maybe knew more what about was going on, than others – and he didn't necesasrily express what on his mind.
More than a few people said, that if his longtime friend, Billy Windsor – who died in January '94 – if had been there, that might not have happened, because Billy was one of those guys that Danny absolutely trusted, that ran interference with the outside world.
Which is another common thread you see in Danny's life story, there always seems to be a need for somebody like that – to take care of business, collect the money, book the gigs, keep people away that aren't perceived as doing any good. He could have done sessions, he could have done film scores, where his music would lend itself to that – and they pay you well, if you're in demand, and he wouldn't have really had to get on a bus all over the 50 states.
People couldn't understand how somebody who had all those things going for him could do something like that. For example, he was supposed to play a wedding gig for a fan in Arizona who was going to pay him something like $8,000, and was even going to fly them all there. A minor example, but a relevant example – and he was also going to do a tour with Arlen Roth, and they were going to work together on projects.
Of course, he's not the first [musician] who fell over that [vocal versus instrumental-only contradiction]. As his sax player, Roger McDuffie, pointed out to me once – unless you have a hit record, or something that keeps you in front of people, it's fairly easy to get overlooked. And he said, “Sad as it is, a lot of legends tend to be forgotten.”
SO DOES DANNY GATTON HAVE A LEGACY, AND IF SO, WHAT IS IT?
I think so – I mean, he has a legacy in the sense that I still field questions and emails from people constantly...not every day, or every week, but on a fairly regular basis. I'll hear from somebody who wants to know more about the man, or what you think his best stuff is – or, as you've just asked, why did he kill himself? I hear all sorts of questions like that.
And I think you can hear shis influence, maybe, in some of the current crop of multi-instrumentalists – people like Bela Fleck, for instance, who has a very heavy bluegrass oprientation to his sound – [or], on the country spectrum, people like Brad Paisley, who've certainly taken that melding of country and jazz and other musics into a different level. So I think his influence and his fingerprints are still being felt, yes, and beyond the immediate area of Washington, D.C.
And also, there's been quite a few posthumous releases, as you probably are aware – that's something, even at the cult level, that has fed into that interest that helps keep the whole body of his music alive for the next generation that wants to know more about it.
Through the magic of archiving, Chairman Ralph offers outtakes from his 9/30/09 interview with Phil Harrell for National Public Radio's 15th anniversary piece about Danny Gatton. The conversation covers all the bases, from Danny's guitar style and key influences, to his lack of mainstream acceptance, and how his music holds up today.
NPR's piece offered a four-and-a-half-minute primer on Gatton's legend, with all basics present and correct, as recounted by Tom Principato, longtime bassist John Previti -- who recalled Danny referring to himself as a "Whitman sampler of music" -- and myself, who'd been interviewed (9/30/09) as the author of UNFINISHED BUSINESS: THE LIFE & TIMES OF DANNY GATTON.
Kudos to NPR's producer, Phil Harrell, for being able to pack so much into such a narrow furrow, which -- of course -- is what radio production is all about!
For those who haven't heard the show, go here to find it:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=113485730
You can also read a complete transcript of all the remarks from those who participated in the program, including myself. Inevitably, my interview with Phil contained way more than he could use on the air, so here is our chat, as I recorded it, on my end. For simplicity, I grouped my responses by subject, as we talked (with minor edits to improve continuity, and eliminate repetition)...enjoy!
INTERVIEW WITH PHIL HARRELL
WHAT ARE THE MOST DISTINCTIVE ERAS OF DANNY GATTON'S CARRER?
Well, there's a couple different periods you can divide it into – the first one would, of course, would be “The Teen Phenom Period,” where he starts experimenting with multi-tracking and overdubbing like his main musical hero, Les Paul.
And, from there, it sort of segues into playing with kids in the neighborhood, and eventually, being recognized by older people that he's playing with in the area, and he starts playing in all these different bands -- bar bands, dance bands, whatever you want to call them.
So there's that basic era, and where it really starts to coalesce into something more serious, of course, is when he gets a little older, in his early '20s. By the late '60s, he's touring with Bobby Charles, a soul guy. He's basically starting out as a hired gun, getting whatever experience he can -- and, in between, making the different forays to places like Nashville -- hoping that somebody will pick up on him, and recognize his talent.
But the real snowball that goes down the hill – in terms of recgonition, at least locally – is when he joins Liz Meyer's bluegrass band, in the early '70s. That's where you start to hear him develop – at least from some of the live tapes I've acquired – those fat runs, rippling banjjo-like rolls, and country experiments with tone...all those things that became so important to the evolution of his style – along with, of course, the melodic sensibility, and his sense of jazz improvisation. And that's the blender that makes up Danny Gatton, the musician.
Like I said, I've got a bootleg recording that somebody sent me – it's from Lisner Auditorium, in Washington, D.C., in 1973. He's basically getting out the electric, and getting down on his signature showcase of that time, “Orange Blossom Special” -- which, in later years, becomes the vehicle for a medley to go into anything and everything from movie themes, to the “Linus And Lucy” theme, and back again.
WASN'T DANNY'S DAD A MUSICIAN, TOO?
That's right – his dad played in big bands in his younger days, before his family put a little pressure on him. You get that question of, “Are you gonna make a living playing that thing, son?” And so, he became a machinist, basically -- and, of course, the cycle would be repreated when Danny comes of age, and his father says, “That's a nice a way to express yourself, son, but it's no way to make a living.”
HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE DANNY GATTON'S STYLE?
Well, I guess there's two phrases I like to use for that. Number one would be, “A living treasury of American musical styles” -- the roots of music, specifically country, jazz, a little bit of bluegrass – and, of course, the blues, a fixation which became quite a bit more pronounced toward the end.
That's one phrase, because -- unlike a lot of artists who tend to stick to one narrow furrow, Danny, as you probably are very well aware, mixed all of those styles up...sometimes, within the space of a song, or even a solo. So that's description number one.
The other description I'd use is, “The musical sound of thinking out loud,” and what I mean by that is – when you hear something like the live version of “Linus And Lucy” (from PORTRAITS) which then segues into this frenzied “Orange Blossom Special” medley, even within the solos he plays – you can literally almost hear him switching off from this thought, to the next, to the next.
And what's fascinating for the listener is -- you're sitting at home, thinking, “Well, how's he ever going to get out of this?” And somehow, he always does. Like a cat, he kind of lands on his feet. So that's the other phrase I would tend to use.
WHAT DO YOU CONSIDER THE DEFINITIVE DANNY GATTON ALBUM?
Well, I wouldn't have called the book UNFINISHED BUSINESS, obviously, if I didn't like the album. So that's one, because it's all-instrumental, and you hear him go through all the different styles that I've just described. So I would point to that.
Earlier in his career, I would look at REDNECK JAZZ as being the definitive statement – again, going from country, to the more redneck stuff, as you would say, the “honky-tonk Eric Clapton” -- to the lengthy instrumental explorations that he does on the live version of “Ode To Billy Joe,” and the elaborate multi-tracking on instrumentals like “Sax Fifth Avenue.”
So, I would point to that – and, later, toward the end of his career, I think he was doing some of his very best material, actually. I would suggest LIVE 9/9/94, which was not long before he passed – it shows you what he sounded like live, no tricks, no gimmicks, just Danny with his rhythm section.
And I would also point to the [RELENTLESS] album that he did with [keyboardist] Joey DeFrancesco – that's another one, if you want to hear him do the pure jazz kind of stuff that he was so good at, you listen to something like his version of “Well You Needn't”...it doesn't get any faster than that.
DANNY HAD SEVERAL BRUSHES WITH FAME, DIDN'T HE?
Well, there were many [brushes with fame], and this is something that gets explored in the book, at great length. Initially, perhaps, the first call you might suggest – or that might come to mind, even locally – was [his tenure] with the Redneck Jazz Explosion, which fused his country and jazz explorations into a more cohesive statement. And, along the way, he ran into Lowell George, from Little Feat – have you ever heard this story?
I heard different versions of this, and I wasn't able to totally pin them down, but he went with his buddy, Phil Zavarella, the owner of Zavarella's Music [to see Lowell at Lisner Auditorium]...somehow, they got backstage, and apparently, Lowell made some comments -– or, supposedly, made some overtures to joining his new band –- he was touring solo, having just left Little Feat. And then, the very next night, he dies; that was a bit of a shock to everyone. As Phil mentioned, Danny said, “Wow, I just had seen him a few hours earlier.”
Steve Wolf, the bass player from many area bands – including Redneck Jazz Explosion – swears that Danny told him he had had talks with Lowell, and was lobbying to add him to the rhythm section, and form a bans. Now, there's a lot of debate about those stories, but what's clear, at least, is that Danny sort of thought that he might be able to go somewhere if he was connected with Lowell, in some way. Don't forget, he had just been to the West Coast.
So that might be brush number one. Brush number two would be some of the overtures that he got during the '80s – John Fogerty wanted him to join his touring band, when he resurrected his career after CENTERFIELD. Have you heard that story?
Well, what happened, basically – according to his drummer, Dave Elliott -- Danny was in the garage, working on a car, when Fogerty called him up -- and made the offer. And he [Danny] said, “Well, I'll think about it,” and that was it. He forgot to call back, apparently, and that's why that didn't go anywhere – such was his reptuation, people [of Fogerty's caliber] would call him on an occasional, semi-regular basis, and think enough of him to add him, at least, as kind of a prominent hired gun to their bands.
And then you've got, maybe, the third major brush, of course – as many people in your area would see it – with the signing of the major label deal with Elektra Records. Right out of the box, he gets a Grammy nominated-albuim in 88 ELMIRA ST. And, unforutnately, it loses that year to Eric Johnson. So there's another example of coming, “Oh, so close, oh, so near, and yet so far” -- because, from the label's perspective, he fails to tour as much as he could to support the records. Therefore, they end up dropping him.
And that sets up the final phase of his career – he goes back to doing these independent one-off records, and it's re-establishing himself through that market, as it were. Why did it take so long [to get signed]? Well, to put it plainly, he didn't tour that much outside of his homegrown area.
As a musician, of course,. “touring is advertising,” as they like to say – if you don't spend that time going out to different areas, and trying to win over different audiences, then, basically, you're not going to be as well-known as somebody who does do that. I mean, technically, he only really did a couple national tours – on his own behalf, [including] the second Elektra album, CRUISIN' DEUCES...and then, of course, earlier in his career as a hired gun for Roger Miller.
They actually went to places like Australia during that era. This would be the late '70s, early '80s. I think I make a comment on this in the book – it's almost as if Jimmy Page, of Led Zeppelin, decided to stick with playing the local pub, and you could see him there every weekend, but he would never have gone beyond that.
DID PEOPLE REALLY CALL HIM "THE HUMBLER"?
That [“The Humbler”] was a nickname going around for quite awhile – that was, of course, stemming from the live tape with Robert Gordon that's now on CD. I've heard other variations on that [nickname]. Many people call him “the greatest unknown guitar player you've never heard”. Some people refer to him as “The Master Bnlaster of The Telecaster,” some, “The Telemaster” -- it seemed to almost change with the mood of the people who saw him, whatever show they saw...because, as you know, no two Danny Gatton shows were quite the same.
WHY DID DANNY GATTON KILL HIMSELF?
Well, as you probably know – there's a whole chapter dedicated to the issues arising from that [suicide death]. Number one, I think he had a long-standing issue with depression – a lot of anecdotes that I got from people, seem to bear that out.
For example, when [former Commander Cody guitarist] Bill Kirchen moved to Washington, D.C., Danny helped him get acquainted with the scene. He gave him gigs that he either didn't want to do, or didn't have time to do. One day, he [Kirchen] remembered being on a corporate gig with him – and, from out of the blue, Danny said something along the lines of, “Don't you just hate this shit?”
Bill looked at him, and thought he was joking, but it dawned on him that he was serious. And, when he tried to probe a little further, Danny kind of shut down, and didn't say anything more about it – so there were anecdotes like that, which were mentioned in the book, that would seem to suggest that [perception].
Number two, he had some physical health issues. And this is something that's [subject to] a little debate – because he was cremated afterwards, so there's no complete report. But he seemed to feel – or had either suffered a series of mini-strokes. This had impared his ability to play. And he had apparently stated, if that happened, he definitely wouldn't want to stick around – because that was the only thing -- other than working on his cars -- that gave him satisfaction, that he was able to do.
So, you've got those two forces coming together – and, as his widow Jan suggested, it was perhaps a case of all the stars falling into alignment, [including] his fears for his health, fears for his security, and...by implication...his family's security...all coming together in a mixture, I guess, of anger and frustration with his own situation. That might be the simplest way to explain it.
Many, many people expressed that sentiment, that it [Danny's action] sort of ccame from out of the blue – there were a few people who did say, “It wasn't the first time he tried, it wsa the first time he'd succeeded.” But Danny had a way of compartmentalizing his life, to the extent that some people maybe knew more what about was going on, than others – and he didn't necesasrily express what on his mind.
More than a few people said, that if his longtime friend, Billy Windsor – who died in January '94 – if had been there, that might not have happened, because Billy was one of those guys that Danny absolutely trusted, that ran interference with the outside world.
Which is another common thread you see in Danny's life story, there always seems to be a need for somebody like that – to take care of business, collect the money, book the gigs, keep people away that aren't perceived as doing any good. He could have done sessions, he could have done film scores, where his music would lend itself to that – and they pay you well, if you're in demand, and he wouldn't have really had to get on a bus all over the 50 states.
People couldn't understand how somebody who had all those things going for him could do something like that. For example, he was supposed to play a wedding gig for a fan in Arizona who was going to pay him something like $8,000, and was even going to fly them all there. A minor example, but a relevant example – and he was also going to do a tour with Arlen Roth, and they were going to work together on projects.
Of course, he's not the first [musician] who fell over that [vocal versus instrumental-only contradiction]. As his sax player, Roger McDuffie, pointed out to me once – unless you have a hit record, or something that keeps you in front of people, it's fairly easy to get overlooked. And he said, “Sad as it is, a lot of legends tend to be forgotten.”
SO DOES DANNY GATTON HAVE A LEGACY, AND IF SO, WHAT IS IT?
I think so – I mean, he has a legacy in the sense that I still field questions and emails from people constantly...not every day, or every week, but on a fairly regular basis. I'll hear from somebody who wants to know more about the man, or what you think his best stuff is – or, as you've just asked, why did he kill himself? I hear all sorts of questions like that.
And I think you can hear shis influence, maybe, in some of the current crop of multi-instrumentalists – people like Bela Fleck, for instance, who has a very heavy bluegrass oprientation to his sound – [or], on the country spectrum, people like Brad Paisley, who've certainly taken that melding of country and jazz and other musics into a different level. So I think his influence and his fingerprints are still being felt, yes, and beyond the immediate area of Washington, D.C.
And also, there's been quite a few posthumous releases, as you probably are aware – that's something, even at the cult level, that has fed into that interest that helps keep the whole body of his music alive for the next generation that wants to know more about it.
Through the magic of archiving, Chairman Ralph offers outtakes from his 9/30/09 interview with Phil Harrell for National Public Radio's 15th anniversary piece about Danny Gatton. The conversation covers all the bases, from Danny's guitar style and key influences, to his lack of mainstream acceptance, and how his music holds up today.